LS Re: The definition of Quality.

Doug Renselle (
Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:52:21 +0100

Dave and TLS,

Dave Thomas wrote:
> Doug
> Thanks for your effort to clear my muddled mind, but I'm still not
> there yet.
> I agree that this is one of the critical issues to be resolved.
I prefer to think of it as: we both have different contexts (legacy
pattern repertoires and environments) and we are seeking ways to align
MoQ portions of those contexts. IMO, your mind, nor the mind of any TLS
member is muddled. We all have different legacies that we live in and
Doug Renselle.
> > " But quantum theory has destroyed the idea that [ONLY] properties
> located
> > in external physical objects have reality."
> >
> > Robert M. Pirsig, page 14 in his paper
> > "Subjects, Objects, Data and Values," presented at the Einstein
> Meets
> > Magritte conference, Fall 1995.
> But I'm still hung up on the [ONLY],my emphasis, in the above
> referenced
> quote. I infer from this that man's reality always has a "subjective"
> component which is I believe is born out by the quantum theory. But
> not
> necessarily that there is no external "objective" component. And that
> while
> SoM maintains that we can isolate that "objective" component MoQ
> maintains we
> cannot. That our reality is both rather and either and to separate
> this way
> leads to whole catagories of phenomena that fit neither. So maybe you
> could
> answer one or both of the following questions in terms of the quantum
> theory
> to clear this up for me.
> If the phenomena we observe and call "quanta" forever and always
> disappears
> from our universe would our reality markedly change?
These, IMO, are SUPERB questions! They touch crux.

Caveat on my subsequent comments: I am a self-teaching student of
quantum science.

Let's give a lay person definition of ‘quanta:’ A quanta, one quantum,
is the simplest and indivisible quantum system known to quantum
science. Allow me to use the mnemonic, QS, for quantum system.

Now my-, one-, an-answer to your question. QSs exist forever and are
either in their latched state, which we see as reality, or in their
unlatched state which we cannot see or fathom as reality. Latched QSs
are surrounded by and interpenetrated by unlatched QSs. The MoQ
metaphor here is DQ vs. SQ, or Dynamic Quality vs. Static Quality.
(Note: ‘forever’ is from our anthropomorphic, finite intellect
Doug Renselle.
> Under quantum mechanics if all men die then the does phenomena we
> observe and
> call "quanta" cease to be?
Per the answer to the first question, no!
Doug Renselle.
> Would the then remaining universe,other
> than man
> being gone, markedly change?
Doug Renselle.
> ie would the sun, earth, stars disappear
> or
> change in any way?
No, all of those things are QSs (quantum systems).
Doug Renselle.
> I was not aware of Bohr's use of the Tao. The fact that it is both the
> dominant Eastern icon in Western culture, to the point of being a
> cliché, it's
> was an obvious choice. Having a sine wave as the boundary is not
> something I
> had picked up on but that makes it even more appropriate as a vehicle
> for a
> East/West combine.
> Heard a new blurb that somewhere in Europe, Switzerland it think,
> scientists
> have succeeded in "teleporting" quanta. But that "Beam me up Scotty"
> is still
> a fur piece in the future. As an architect the dream of eliminating
> the auto
> from our built world makes me want to live to be a million years old
> in the
> hopes that it someday happens. :-)
IBM, et al., are working on this, too, as we speak. It depends upon
superluminal communication (to be more correct, zero latency
communication independent of distance - Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen
attempted to show that quantum mechanics was 'incomplete' using the
classical assumption that no phenomenon could exceed the speed of light,
nor violate the classical principle of locality).

I am still amazed that Pirsig birthed the MoQ without training in
quantum physics. And let us all commend Diana and Bo and Platt and us
for bringing Pirsig and us together in TLS. What a gift!
Doug Renselle.
> Still Seeking
That is what DQ is all about! Do not stop! And let's enjoy the
Doug Renselle.
> Dave

" But quantum theory has destroyed the idea that only properties located
in external physical objects have reality."

Robert M. Pirsig, page 14 in his paper "Subjects, Objects, Data and Values," presented at the Einstein Meets Magritte conference, Fall 1995.

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