LS Re: Danah Zohar and Quality.

Jason Gaedtke (
Fri, 5 Sep 1997 03:58:42 +0100

Yes! Yes! Yes!

How can the subjective (consciousness in her vocabulary) and the
(matter) have a common ancestor in matter - even if she calls it quantum
reality? [Whoops. This very moment it dawned on me why Jason and Doug
emphasized the uniqueness of the "Quantum World" so much. Hmm !].

This is EXACTLY what Doug and I were getting at! According to Zohar's
interpretation (a very plausible one, I think), the constituent essence
quantum reality involves a more fundamental collection of value patterns
than ordinary inorganic ones. We must be careful in our use of

Matter, is a SO term. According to quantum physics (see chapter 13, The
Dynamic Universe, in "The Tao of Physics" by Fritjof Capra) matter is,
essence, a stable form of underlying energy (value) patterns. To refer
the body (i.e. brain) as matter/objective and the mind as subjective is
remain in a SO framework. Pirsig's MoQ delays this dichotomy, declaring
that all reality fundamentally exists as stable patterns of value left
the wake of Dynamic Quality -- the source of all things. Subjects and
objects only come later. It is of utmost importance that we keep this
mind, especially when discussion the so-called Mind/Body problem.

As an aside, Platt's recent question regarding the "experience"
meshes well here. Experience, as I understand it, is another term for
Quality Event. That is, experience is the point at which Static and
Dynamic Quality interact. At the most basic level, this interaction is
quantum in nature -- leading to the creation of 'something' out of
'nothing.' Static patterns (particles, atoms, molecules, (intuitive
thoughts?) etc.) are created out of the elusive "vacuum" that I referred
earlier. This vacuum contains the Dynamic potential for all being --
no unique characteristics of its own.

Viewed in this light, "experience" occurs in each of the levels of the
 This is not a strictly human or biological phenomena. Subatomic
simply have a more basic "experience" than animals, people or societies.

Now back to the issue at hand -- the fundamental nature of quantum
phenomena. If quantum phenomena are in fact an integral part of our
conscious experience -- bridging the gap between Static and Dynamic
Quality, possibly through Bose-Einstein condensates -- then these events
cannot be under-emphasized in our evolving metaphysics. To say that
quantum-level Bose-Einstein condensates (or similar quantum phenomena)
a necessary condition for our "experience" of consciousness is something
very different than saying that consciousness (i.e. subjective
is rooted in matter. Quantum level events could very well be the
link that unites our traditional notions of mind and body in one complex
bundle of values! (More accurately, quantum events unite Static and
Dynamic Quality, leaving what we refer to as subjects and objects
static patterns of value) as they go.)

Before I close I should say a few words concerning my feeling regarding
 As I have disclosed in my brief bio, I am a software engineer by trade.
 As such, I have had a good deal of exposure to this area of
 In fact, I have spent much of the last four years studying neural
networks, genetic algorithms, expert systems, fuzzy logic and hybrid
combinations of the these.

Although I do agree that traditional approaches hold much potential for
success in developing pseudo-intelligent machines, I do not believe that
truly conscious computer can or will be possible without incorporating
quantum underpinnings of our biological systems.

To state this another way, it will very likely be possible to create
pretty impressive adaptive learning machines using artificial neural
networks. We will also be able to "can" much of our existing knowledge
the form of decision-making expert systems. (see for
one impressive example) The resulting machines will appear to exhibit
truly "intelligent" behavior. However, without addressing the most
fundamental aspects of our being -- namely quantum events -- we will
develop an algorithm that embodies the full conscious experience. (For
good account of traditional approaches to this problem see; bear in mind
that this is a limited SO account!)

Based on my reading, I am beginning to realize a framework for a new
approach to the problem of AI:

        (1) quantum-level subsystem (replicating the behavior of
occurring Bose-Einstein condensates): primarily quantum/inorganic
        (2) combinational genetic algorithms (involving the competition
of many
possible states, of which only the strongest will survive):
biological/pseudo-biological patterns (as suggested earlier by Magnus)
        (3) neural networks / fuzzy logic (adaptive learning, filtering,
recognition; knowledge storage): biological AND social patterns
        (4) expert systems (inductive and deductive reasoning leading to
conclusions): social and intellectual patterns

(Some of the important aspects of the genetic algorithm layer may
take place at the quantum level, since the superposition of all possible
states that exists prior to the collapse of the wave function parallels
this process.)

I'm sure that many of these ideas are new to the majority of the list.
always, please feel free to offer your questions and comments.


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